The Complicated History of Batman Killing People

Part One: The Golden Age (Earth-2 Batman)

When Bill Finger and Bob Kane debuted Batman in 1939, the titular character (joined shortly thereafter by his sidekick Robin) killed wantonly—sometimes in self-defense (i.e. indirectly or situationally), but sometimes purposefully and callously as well. Batman certainly had no qualms about using lethal force in his war against crime. As highlighted by hotstufflouieb on the DC Universe Infinite forums in 2020, Chris on ComicTropes in 2019, and multiple people on the SuperHeroHype forums in 2016, Golden Age Batman started out by committing the following murders:

–Detective Comics #27 (1939) – Batman judo flips a bad guy off of a roof and knocks Alfred Stryker into a vat of acid. (1, 2)
–Detective Comics #28 (1939) – Batman kicks jewel thief Ricky off of a roof. (3)
–Detective Comics #29 (1939) – Batman breaks the neck of henchman Jabah. (4)
–Detective Comics #30 (1939) – Batman snaps the neck of Dr. Death’s henchman Mikhail. (5)
–Detective Comics #33 (1939) – Batman blows up three of Kruger’s henchmen, tricks Kruger into killing his own henchman, blows up a couple more of Kruger’s henchman in a blimp explosion, then later causes Kruger to die in an airplane crash. (6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)
–Detective Comics #34 (1939) – Batman forces kidnapper Duc D’Orterre into a fatal car crash. (13)
–Detective Comics #35 (1940) – Batman causes a henchman to get impaled by a sword, then knocks Sheldon Lenox out of a window. (14, 15)
–Detective Comics #37 (1940) – Batman punches Count Grutt into a sword. (16)
–Batman #1 Part 2 (1940) – Batman allows a couple Monster Men to kill one another, shoots a couple of Hugo Strange’s henchmen, hangs a Monster Man, kills another henchman, and knocks a Monster Man off of a building. (17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23)
–Detective Comics #39 (1940) – Batman pushes giant statue onto eight cultists. Earlier in the story, Batman and an assassin tumble out of a window together (with Batman landing on top of him below). It’s unclear whether or not this is a death (or even whether or not this would count toward our list), so I’ve left it off. (24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30, 31, 32)
–Batman #2 Part 2 (1940) – Batman punches crook Adam Lamb down a flight of stairs. (33)
–Batman #2 Part 4 (1940) – Batman knocks Goliath the caveman off of a circus tent. (34)
–Batman #3 Part 3 (1940) – Batman judo flips a bad guy off of a roof. (35)

From 1939 through mid 1940, one can total around thirty-five Bat-kills (a mix of self-defense and purposely caused deaths). Remarkably, in Detective Comics #32 by Gardner Fox (1939), Batman terminates The Monk and Dala Vadim with a gun. However, these are vampire slayings, which is why they’ve been left off the list above. (As we’ll come to learn, DC writers never regarded the destruction of the undead as legitimate murder.) Of note, Robin had been busy killing as well, with two dead by the Boy Wonder’s hand in Detective Comics #38 by Finger and Kane (1940). By mid 1940, though, Batman quickly stopped killing entirely. Robin can be seen eliminating two more people in Batman #6 by Finger and Kane (1941), but his murderous behavior more-or-less also stopped in its tracks immediately after that.

What had occurred to mark such a stark change in Batman and Robin’s attitudes? As detailed wonderfully by Alan Kistler in a 2019 Polygon article, following the instant success of Batman #1 (1940), DC publisher Jack Liebowitz and editor-in-chief Whitney Ellsworth told Batman creators Kane and Finger they not only wanted them to permanently phase out Batman toting a gun, but also Batman killing people altogether. Already regretful for having painted Batman as a killer, Finger was all for the change whereas the stubborn Kane pushed back. Nevertheless, Kane quickly acquiesced. In Batman #4 (cover date 1940, release date 1941), Kane and Finger initiated what would go on to become Batman’s very famous non-lethal code of conduct, which still lasts to this very day. At the time, all DC writers made sure that Batman strictly adhered to the new rule. Detective Comics #108 by Don Cameron and Dick Sprang (1946) and World’s Finest Comics #27 by Bill Finger and Jim Mooney (1947) both included further details about Batman’s non-lethal code, thus linking it to the character forever more.

Following the institution of Batman’s no killing ordinance in 1940/1941, Batman’s only remaining Golden Age (Earth-2) killings were all WWII related. It’s clear that Ellsworth and company made a major exception to Batman’s no killing rule for government-conscripted jobs in which he was engaged during wartime. In fact, the kill count ballooned exponentially once Batman got Nazis in his sights. Here’s the chronological list of these military-sanctioned offings.

–Detective Comics #55 (1941) – Batman throws a Nazi into a vat of molten metal and throws two other Nazis off of a blimp. (36, 37)
–The Brave and The Bold #84 (1969, Earth-2 canon only) – Batman kills dozens more Nazis on behalf of the US Army. (38 to ~60?)
–Batman film serial (1943) – Batman kills Axis agents on behalf of the US government. (~60 to 65?) From the conclusion of WWII onward, Earth-2 Batman’s killing days would be legitimately done. Overall, Earth-2 Batman’s Axis Power kill count is high enough that it’s hard to quantify. (He blows up bridges, planes, and ships filled with enemy soldiers. My guess is around thirty wartime kills, bringing Earth-2 Batman’s Golden Age total to around sixty to sixty-five kills.) I suggest regarding Batman’s wartime kill count with an asterisk, keeping those numbers separate from his Gotham activities.

Before we move on, we should bring up a few iffy issues from Finger. First, in Finger’s Detective Comics #47 (1941), Batman forces a blackmailer into what appears to be a fatal automobile accident. However, an editorial note that follows makes note that the blackmailer and his accomplices have been “trussed,” which implies that they’ve been captured and jailed. We can assume that no one was forced into a fatal crash by the Caped Crusader, who is thus able to uphold his no killing vow. This was the continuation of a trend that had started right out of the gate in 1939 (and one that would be present for decades to follow): Bat-killings being open to interpretation, subject to certain points of view, or undone with a retcon or a caption. For example, villains like Joker or Hugo Strange “died” at the hand of Batman time and time again only to re-appear with a revelation that they weren’t actually killed before. Second, in Finger’s Detective Comics #56 (1941), Batman knocks a strongman into a mineshaft pillar, which causes the mineshaft to collapse. The strongman and his gang are all killed. One could argue that Batman has killed five people here—albeit in self-defense. However, Finger’s narrative intention, despite being a bit sloppy, was clearly to place blame on the strongman for the mineshaft collapse. Third, Finger’s Batman #8 (cover date 1942, release date 1941) ends with Batman kicking super-villain Professor Radium to his death. However, this is misleading. Radium had already previously died and been resurrected as a radioactive undead monstrosity. Therefore, this fits into the previously mentioned undead (zombies, vampires, and other unnatural beings) category, meaning this doesn’t actually count as a kill. Our analysis of Finger tales wouldn’t be complete without addressing Batman #15 Part 3 (cover date 1943, published 1942), which a lot of internauts like to talk about since it features Batman extinguishing dozens of Axis soldiers on behalf of the US Army. However, most people miss entirely that this is an imaginary story that doesn’t actually occur. Therefore, Batman #15 Part 3 doesn’t violate the no killing decree.

Notably, 1949’s Batman and Robin (the second Batman film serial, written by George Plympton, Joseph Poland, and Royal Cole; and directed by Spencer Gordon Bennet) contains some brutal scenes featuring fatalities, but there’s a strong argument to be made that Batman doesn’t actually kill anyone (or isn’t directly responsible for causing deaths) in said scenes. Throughout the rest of the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, it was fairly easy for Batman writers to stick to the no killing conviction, especially with the campy tone and lighter fare of the Golden to Silver Age transition era.

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Part Two: The Silver and Bronze Age (Earth-1 Batman)

In the 1950s and 1960s, as the Silver Age split DC’s line in twain, giving retroactive birth to Earth-1 and Earth-2, the no killing rule spread across the multiverse, echoed through the actions of two separate Batmen. The elder Earth-2 Batman’s no killing code of conduct, which had begun in 1941/1942, would continue plainly, without the Dark Knight engaging in any homicidal behavior whatsoever. Earth-1 Batman’s no killing code was clearly heralded (and adhered to) as well. In terms of the Silver Age, it was first officially mentioned in World’s Finest #164 by Leo Dorfman and Curt Swan (1967). From that point onward, there would be nods toward Batman’s anti-killing MO for many years to come, with various comics giving readers important reminders of the vow every now-and-again.

As the Bronze age began in the 1970s, DC higher-ups (particularly editor Julius Schwartz) called for a much darker world for Earth-1 Batman. With the arrival of this edgier style of storytelling came an immediate contradiction between the Caped Crusader’s new grim-dark violence and his classic imperturbable restraint to kill. The no killing rule wasn’t just for the Caped Crusader in fictive Gotham City, but also for the DC bullpen churning out Bat-stories in real New York. But even the best of these writers (like Denny O’Neil, for example) struggled to find a balance. In fact, O’Neil—along with contemporaries like David Vern Reed, Bob Haney, and Mike W Barr—would write darker and darker Batman tales through the 1970s and early 1980s, increasing the violence tenfold even though Batman’s non-lethal edict was definitively still in place. This led to a handful of instances throughout the Bronze Age where Batman did sometimes kill, albeit only (usually) in self-defense. (If the increasing violence of the story demanded killing, then it had to unequivocally be done in self-defense so as to not fly too boldly in the face of the no killing rule.) Of course, very few writers, if any, were submitting stories where Batman was killing outright, meaning that most of the Bat-killings were open to reader interpretation.

The hyper-violence of the Bronze Age also brought about the first ever legitimate exceptions to Earth-1 Batman’s no killing rule. The first exception to the rule was in regard to immortals (specifically, those who have extended their lifespan by unnatural means)—as seen with the Muertos in Detective Comics #395 by O’Neil and Neal Adams (1970), with Ubu in Detective Comics #438 by Archie Goodwin and Jim Aparo (1974), with Catman in Detective Comics #509 by Gerry Conway (1981), and multiple times with Ra’s al Ghul (in various issues throughout the 1970s and early 1980s, mostly by O’Neil). The idea here was likely that, since immortals could always come back to life, it was okay to use deadly force against (or in retaliation to) them. The second exception to the rule was in regard to vampires and/or the undead (as seen throughout the 1970s and early 1980s, most notably in Batman #235 by O’Neil, Detective Comics #455 by Bernie Wrightson and Elliot S Maggin, and The Brave and The Bold #195 by Barr). The logic was clear, reflecting the very same exception dating back to the early Golden Age—vampires and the undead were already dead (evil dead, actually!), so killing them again was an acceptable form of punishment. Interestingly, despite O’Neil’s edgier storytelling, he was always one of the more progressive-minded writers at DC, always keeping the no kill rule in mind at all times (despite the handful of ostensible fatal contradictions he contributed to the mix over the years).

Now let’s get to the million dollar question at heart of this article. What are the canonical instances of Batman killing—from material published from the mid 1940s up to present day? Most folks think that it has happened very rarely (if ever), but there are actually a bunch of occurrences where Batman kills. As highlighted earlier, ComicTropes has an excellent video about all of Batman’s kills from the Golden Age into the Infinite Frontier Era, and the SuperHeroHype forums have a great discussion about this as well, but I’ll break it down for you with another easy-to-digest list below. To start, these are all the possible canonical Silver/Bronze Age (i.e. Earth-1) Bat-killings, all of which are via self-defense. Again, some—if not most—are debatable.

–“The Case of the Chemical Syndicate” (1939 but canon in Silver/Bronze Age) – Batman punches a crook into vat of chemicals. (1)
–Batman #1 Part 2 (1940 but canon in Silver/Bronze Age) – Batman guns down a couple of Hugo Strange’s henchmen, hangs a Monster Man, and knocks a Monster Man off a building. (2, 3, 4, 5)
–Batman #221 (1970) – Batman judo tosses an evil scientist into a pit holding a killer lamb. (6)
–The Brave and The Bold #90 (1970) – Batman tosses a villain into the ocean, killing him. (7)
–Batman #235 (1971) – Batman knocks a League of Assassins scientist into deadly chemicals. (8)
–Batman #270 (1975) – Batman punches a crook into a statue, which crushes him to death. (9)
–Batman #271 (1975) – Batman blows up about fifteen cultists. (10 to 24)
–Batman #288 (1977) – Batman uses a henchman as a human shield as Penguin shoots at him. (25)
–Batman #290 (1977) – Batman judo tosses Skull Duggar into an electrified power box. (26)
–The Brave and The Bold #157 (1979) – Batman causes a kidnapper to crash his helicopter. (27)
–The Brave and The Bold #159 (1980) – Batman tosses a League of Assassins henchman into Ra’s al Ghul’s crystal death wall. (28)
–Batman #340 (1981) – Batman kills The Mole. While there’s no 100% confirmation here, we never see the Mole again (and Batman’s intent was to eradicate him). (29)
–The Brave and The Bold #193 (1982) – Batman judo tosses Bloodclaw of the PLA off of a bridge. (30)

In total, we have somewhere around thirty Earth-1 Bat-killings, all in self-defense. Although, as stated, some instances are vague and open to interpretation, so this list merely comprises possible killings. While not included above, The Brave and The Bold #127 by Haney (1976) is notable because it shows Batman ignore a distress call, which leads to a fatal helicopter crash. Many online sources regard this as a kill, but I lean the other way on this one. Detective Comics #517 by Gerry Conway and Paul Levitz (1982) is also notable because it shows Batman himself turn into vampire and bite someone, but it’s unclear whether or not the victim dies (or whether this even would be considered a self-defense scenario in the first place). Likewise, Batman Annual #9 Part 2 by Barr (1985) appears to contain a straight-up violation of Batman’s no killing code, showing the Dark Knight directly incite gang bloodshed. We should highlight that the latter is written by Barr, who—as mentioned above, along with Reed, Haney, and O’Neil—arguably penned the most extremely violent Batman comics once the Bronze Age started. Stories by Barr, Reed, Haney, and O’Neil in the 1970s and early 1980s certainly seem to depict Batman sometimes dishing out a level of viciousness that could potentially be fatal, but we have to assume Batman knows exactly what he’s doing, keeping folks maimed but alive. Again, we (the readers) have to suspend our disbelief a bit to ensure he Batman doesn’t break the rules!

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Part Three: The Modern Age

Once The Crisis on Infinite Earths brought about the Modern Age in 1986, Batman’s anti-killing stance was still in full effect, but the lingering gritty effect of the Bronze Age continued influencing (or confusing) writers to some extent. In Batman #402 by Max Allan Collins and Jim Starlin (1986), Jason Todd oddly reminds readers that Batman has killed people before, to which Bruce replies, “[Only] in self-defense.” When Collins wrote this arc, it was right after Crisis on Infinite Earths, so he hadn’t been notified of the Modern Age status quo in regard to Batman’s no killing rule—hence this strange dialogue. When has Modern Age Batman killed in self-defense, you ask? Here’s my complete list of possible canonical instances in chronological order.

–“The Case of the Chemical Syndicate” (1939 but canon in Modern Age) – Batman tosses a villain into a vat of chemicals. Although, technically, we don’t actually know if he dies. (1)
–Detective Comics #29 (1939 but canon in the Modern Age) – Batman tosses one of Dr. Death’s henchmen off a roof. (2)
–Detective Comics #30 (1939 but canon in Modern Age) – Batman snaps the neck of one of Dr. Carl Kruger’s henchmen. (3)
–Detective Comics #35 (1940 but canon in Modern Age) – Batman impales a henchman on a sword and knocks crime boss Sheldon Lenox out of window. (4, 5)
–“Infected” (1996) – Batman knocks a monster-serum-infected soldier into the reservoir. The soldier is definitely more beast than man at the time of his death, but this is still technically a kill. (6)
–“Blink” (2002) – Facing a hail of gunfire and not seeing many options, Batman instinctively uses a henchman as as human shield. (7)
–“Family” – Batman blows up at least two men with explosives. (We’ll keep it at two, since we only technically see two guys get blown up.) (8, 9)
–“Sanctum” (1993) – Batman kicks Lowther onto a railing spike, killing him. (10)
–“The Saga of Ra’s al Ghul” (1971 but canon in Modern Age) – Batman knocks a League of Assassins scientist into chemicals, killing him. (11) He is also tricked into killing Dr. Mason Sterling’s re-animated brain, although this latter instance falls into the category of destruction of the undead, of which Batman is totally cool. After all, just as in previous continuity, Batman believes in killing vampires, werewolves, and other supernatural entities without regard as seen in The Brave and The Bold #195 by Barr 1983 but canon in Modern Age), Action Comics Annual #1 by John Byrne (1987), Detective Comics #814 by David Lapham (2006), Superman and Batman vs Vampires and Werewolves by Kevin VanHook (2008-2009), and other vampire stories in the 1990s and 2000s.
–Year One: Batman – Ra’s al Ghul #2 (2005) – Batman causes an avalanche that buries two League of Assassins agents. It’s possible he doubles back to make sure they are alive, but that’s certainly not shown in the comic. (12, 13)
–The Brave and The Bold #193 (1982 but canon in Modern Age) – Batman judo tosses one of the members of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) off a bridge to his death. (14)
–“Batman: Year Two” (1987) – Reaper falls to his death while fighting Batman. This is more of Batman not saving Reaper from falling, so it could really go either way, depending on your perspective. (15) Batman #402, where we get Jason’s pointed question about Batman killing in the past, occurs at roughly this point on the timeline.
–Batman: Son of the Demon (1987) – Batman kills a couple League of Assassins henchmen by causing a helicopter crash. He also kills Qayin by knocking him into an electrified power box. (16, 17, 18)
–Detective Comics #590 (1988) – Batman knocks a terrorist through a window onto a spike wall below. He later runs over (and blows up) four more terrorists. (19, 20, 21, 22, 23)
–Batman: The Cult (1988) – There’s a trippy scene where a drugged-up Batman seemingly goes on killing spree, but this is merely a hallucination. However, in this same arc, Batman blows up a building with a cultist standing atop its roof. Additionally, Batman more-or-less allows the cultists to kill Deacon Blackfire, although there’s an argument that nothing could be done to save Blackfire once the cultists were on top of him. (24, 25)
–Detective Comics #572 (1987) – Batman uses a hood as a human shield. (26)
–Batman #425 (1988) – In a junkyard, Batman kills a bad guy by causing a pile of cars to topple on top of him. (27)
–Cosmic Odyssey (1988) – Batman shoots a Parademon to death. (Parademons are 100% sentient beings, although some writers—especially in later continuities—will unfortunately treat them more like undead zombies.) (28)
–Detective Comics #613 (1990) – In yet another junkyard, Batman kicks a couple of criminals into the back of a garbage truck, crushing them to death. (29, 30)
–Batman: Bride of the Demon (1990) – Batman crashes an airplane into three League of Assassins technicians. (31, 32, 33) Not long afterward, the League of Assassins base explodes. Some internauts believe that Batman is responsible for the deaths of dozens of people in the base, but, based upon the way the narrative is delivered, there’s more than a strong argument to be made that the destruction of the base is not directly linked to the Dark Knight.

Bride of the Demon by Barr (1990) is the last time we ever see Batman kill anyone in any capacity (even in self-defense) in any continuity. Since eight of his Modern Age kills are highly debatable, this gives us a total of no less than twenty-six but no more than thirty-three possible instances where Batman kills. Again, many of the above scenarios are generally open to reader interpretation, meaning, if one were so determined, one could regard even more Bat-kills as dubious, thus further lessening the number. Nevertheless, Batman killing is more-or-less a rarity (for someone that is constantly fighting for his life every day). By the fact that Devin Grayson’s Year One: Batman – Ra’s al Ghul #2—which was written in 2005 but occurs (partly) in the early portion of the Modern Age timeline—includes a couple Batman self-defense kills, we can ascertain that at least some folks in the DC home office, even as late as 2005, were leaning into the idea that Batman killed in self-defense in his formative years. A rather special case is Batman #673 by Grant Morrison (2008), which famously has Batman psychologically nudge Joe Chill toward suicide. Whether or not we include this on our kill list is debatable as well. (I’ve opted not to, but it could easily be up there, depending on your perspective.) No matter the case, it’s clear that DC editorial, by 1990, mandated that Batman never ever kill again in contemporary chronology. From 1990 onward (even into later continuities!), there aren’t any canonical Bat-killings whatsoever (aside from those retroactively taking place in Batman’s early years or those perpetrated by alternate Batman Jean-Paul Valley in 1994). Story-wise, we can take this to simply mean that, by the end of Modern Age Year 13, Batman gets really good at making sure people around him stay alive.

In the latter part of the Modern Age, readers would see Batman push his no killing code to its utmost limits in regard to certain foes—notably Ra’s al Ghul and Joker (with Jeph Loeb and Jim Lee’s 2003 “Hush” arc being an example of this for both villains, and Starlin and Aparo’s 1988 “Death in the Family” being another example for Joker).

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Part Four: Contemporary Comic Continuity, Ethics, and Hollywood

Overall, the Bat-bodycount (in comics) from 1939 to today comes in as follows: Around sixty to sixty-five kills for Golden Age Earth-2 Batman (nearly half of which are government-sanctioned kills during WWII), around thirty kills for Silver/Bronze Age Earth-1 Batman, somewhere in the range of twenty-five to thirty-three kills (probably on the lower end of the spectrum) for Modern Age Batman, zero kills for New 52 Batman, and zero kills for Rebirth/Infinite Frontier Batman. As you can see, the “Batman never kills” concept has become absolute gospel at DC Comics and it has been for decades.

Beyond writers and publishers grappling with the notion of Batman dishing out capital punishment, for ages, this has been a topic of heated debate among fans too. In fact, when I was on set for the filming of Jozef K Richards’ lovely documentary Batman & Jesus (2017), the concept of Batman committing murder stirred up a big argument among those involved with the project. On set that day (and in local comic shops and online forums yesterday, today, and tomorrow), there are those that firmly believe that Batman should never kill, citing the act as a hypocritical violation of his oath to bring justice to evildoers in honor of his parents having been horribly gunned down. He’s a superhero—and superheroes just don’t kill. Others stand opposed, believing that killing should be a necessary (and equal) action against homicidal maniacs, especially for a vigilante already operating beyond the restrictions of the law. This is brilliantly articulated by Mark White in Batman and Ethics (2019), who says, “By choosing to act outside of nearly every single law (albeit sometimes sanctioned by the police) but cherrypicking no killing as his one personal rule, Batman actually allows thousands of deaths to occur at the hands of his rivals.” As a continuity and superhero purist, I’ve always leaned into the “Batman should never kill” camp, but I do agree with White that Batman’s anti-killing stance directly contradicts his own ethical standpoint and obstructs his stated goals. Removing Joker, Riddler, Two-Face, and others from the equation would lead to an exponentially safer Gotham. Food for thought! Those on the “Batman should kill” team often refer to “realism” as a primary reason behind their viewpoint—citing that a violent crimefighter engaging in daily vigilantism against equally vicious opponents would likely result in collateral loss of human life. Obviously, Hollywood, which strives for filmic “realism,” has long been okay with a Batman-who-kills, as we’ve seen it happen in both Batman movie serials (1943 and 1949), Adam West’s Batman ’66, Tim Burton’s Batman films (1989 and 1992), Joel Schumacher’s Batman Forever (1995), Christopher Nolan’s Dark Knight trilogy (2005, 2008, and 2012), and Zack Snyder’s Batman-related films (2016 and 2017). While there’s no explicit Bat-killing in Matt Reeves’ The Batman (2022), there’s certainly enough harsh violence to presume collateral fatalities with Batman being at least partially responsible for causing them. Thus, Hollywood’s Bat-bloodlust continues.

Thankfully (depending on your perspective, of course), the Batman of the funnybooks has remained devout in his commitment to non-lethal action. In summary, Batman killed initially until 1940/1941, at which point the no killing rule was initiated (with the only exceptions being instances of self-defense and wartime Nazi/Japan stuff). Post-WWII, there were no Bat-killings at all (not even in self-defense). It wasn’t until Bronze Age muddling (where authors were aware of the no killing rule but struggled to deal with it due to the darker tones of the new line) that we wound up with a handful of Bat-killings (mostly in self-defense, at least one with a serious asterisk) sprinkled throughout the 1970s and early 1980s. Once the Modern Age began, there was lingering creator confusion, resulting in a similar vibe until 1990, but after that there would really be no more Bat-killings whatsoever (aside from those retroactively placed in Batman’s early years). To this very day, even into current comics continuity, Batman still hasn’t killed anyone since! Thanks so much for reading. Please leave a comment below, and if you like what you’ve read, please consider donating to my Patreon. Last but not least, a special shout-out to Jasper Derklin for initiating this topic of discussion.

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